A forum for owners of Yamaha TTR250 trail and enduro bikes!

robs · Senior Member

Interest Check - Supermoto Kit

ttr steve · Super Guru

This sounds awesome smile

TTRfan · Super Guru

That sounds very interesting Rob!

It'll be good to see how the idea develops.

A 350 supermoto would be fun biggrin

Brian

mossproof · Super Guru

TTRfan wrote:
That sounds very interesting Rob!
It'll be good to see how the idea develops.
A 350 supermoto would be fun
Brian

Proper hooligan bike smile

-- Edited by mossproof on Friday 29th of March 2019 08:31:04 PM

robs · Senior Member

I've just setup a workshop to start converting old bikes to scrambler type things - dust.cx/tmp/workshop/

Will try and buy a 350 kit and video doing the whole conversion for youtube if I'm one of the lucky ones who manages to snag one :)

Anyone in this neck of the woods is welcome to pop past for a chat and/or to make use of the workshop if they have anything they would like to work on, just shoot me a PM!

In terms of the kit - I'll upload some photos of my prototypes soon. My plan is to get the calliper brackets CNC machined out of ally based off the measurements I have from my steel prototype. If anyone has any experience in getting a small quantity of parts made I'd welcome any advice on the subject!

-- Edited by robs on Friday 29th of March 2019 01:07:21 PM

mossproof · Super Guru

My experience of getting small batches made is be prepared for a long wait!! 2+ years to get close to the 350 kit and now I'm waiting for the machinist's kneecap to heal!! All the good workshops are busy, and they'll fit in small batches between regular customers and bigger jobs.
I'm not saying don't - it's very satisfying when something you've designed comes good, but have patience. And don't order too many 'till the workshop has provided a decent 1st run (ask TTRSteve!)
Oh, and some high quality vacuum formed reproduction side panels would probably sell...

robs · Senior Member

Thanks for the advice mossproof! It's a shame machine shops always seem to be so busy and few and far between! Fortunately for me there is one on the same estate that my workshop is on so hopefully I can get them to do it.

Today I decided that my best option is to take the measurements from my prototype and build 3D model in some CAD software. I was thinking I could get the design printed locally but turns out there isn't anywhere in Hastings that I can find that will do it and I also don't like the amount of time that would add into the development feedback-loop which will probably involve doing a lot of small adjustments until I can get a perfect fit.

So the long and short of it is that I've got a 3D printer turning up on Monday. It turns out that it's very cheap to get into now and pretty good results can be had for about 200 bones.

I'm going to try and get my head around CAD this weekend so when the printer turns up on Monday I can give printing some parts a go.

I'd love some new side panels too!

ttboof · Super Guru

Just something to consider I used to have a second set of wheels that were laced to ttr hubs so extremely easy to change over . Your plan to upgrade brakes as well sounds good .

I didn't keep my wheels as I'm 99% dirt

robs · Senior Member

ttboof - that is an interesting approach with the advantage of not having to change the front brake calliper when switching wheels over.

Finding a spare set of hubs and then lacing them up with new rims is probably beyond most people (including myself at the moment) and I think would probably end up being more expensive than my current approach, not to mention the difficulty in finding a spare set of hubs.

In terms of effort switching between dirt and street, I have a separate master-cylinder/brake line/calliper for each setup (a different calliper is required for the larger disc Im using on the supermoto wheel) and since I leave them all connected together it is a pretty simple matter to just switch the whole brake setup over and only takes about 5 minutes.

ttboof · Super Guru

Sounds good and like the brake set up your using

They are defiantly a bit of fun on the road shame the days of the cush drive on the back sprocket has gone would make the ttr super smooth on the road

JOHNYBOY · Super Guru

ive got a pair of ttr hubs wheres the best place to get 17" rims not too expensive please im on a budget also need to buy tyres

ttboof · Super Guru

JOHNYBOY wrote:
ive got a pair of ttr hubs wheres the best place to get 17" rims not too expensive please im on a budget also need to buy tyres

Mine were excel blue rims sorry can't remember the actual size

Dan-in-a-Van · Veteran Member

My bike came with 17" excel rims front and rear, and the hybrid tyres are fine for dryish green lanes. I suppose switching wheels depends on how muddy you get ;)

robs · Senior Member

Found a few old pics and here is a first attempt at CAD for the bracket for those that are interested

JOHNYBOY · Super Guru

so whats the best / cheapest place for me to get some rims also do i need anything special spokes how many etc

mossproof · Super Guru

John your best bet is head to your nearest bike breaker and hunt for 17" rims with 36 spokes. Then find someone who'll lace them up to some TTR hubs.
New rims run from about £120 up, spoke sets prob about £80 upwards and 50-80 for a wheel builder to do it. Look at Central Wheel Services website - they have a pdf pricelist you can work it all out more or less. Their prices are actually pretty fair, but it's not a cheap job.
Maybe Rob has some wheels in mind?
I have a set that came of an XR250R SuMo (prefer that to Motard - sounds too much like retard!!) but I'm not sure they'll fit. Must get me tape measure out, they might be for sale...

robs · Senior Member

First attempt and amazingly it seems to fit! Not a perfect print though so will mess about with it a bit more tomorrow..

if anyone wants anything printing let me know and i can post it to ya!

robs · Senior Member

Yeah i am using different wheels hence needing a calliper bracket to accommodate the larger front disc. Advantage is being able to use ready built wheels which can be had relatively cheaply but disadvantage is you need the extra machined parts (calliper bracket, wheel spacers), front calliper to fit larger disc, and to make it really practical you want a spare cable and master cylinder setup if you want to be able to switch wheel sets quickly.

JOHNYBOY · Super Guru

many thanks for your advise simon ill go sort out rims with 36 spokes ill probably need a wider one for rear

robs · Senior Member

Quick update - I've found a company willing to make a prototype in the UK for 150-200 GBP. I think the cost here is creating the tool path for the milling machine so hopefully if adjustments are needed then the additional cost for further prototypes should be minimal, and I hope that producing copies of the final version should also be relatively cheap.

Hopefully I will get a first prototype made this week and report back.

-- Edited by robs on Saturday 13th of April 2019 04:59:52 PM

robs · Senior Member

I'm not sure if anyone is still following this with any interest but thought I'd do another update anyway..

This is the design I've decided on. Compared to a lot of other brackets that I've seen online it has far more substance but I am aiming for over, rather than under engineering it.

Sending design off to the CNC company today so will hopefully see some results soon.

mossproof · Super Guru

Yep, still following!
Sounds a bit expensive, but so few places will do small batches they've got you over a barrel. Have they given you a price post-prototype that is more reasonable?

robs · Senior Member

Hey mossproof, I should receive the final quote in the morning. I'll also try to find out tomorrow the cost of production per unit once the prototype is done, and whether I'm buying the tool path that they make (so I could have an option on where to get further copies machined) or whether I am locked into using them as a vendor.

Watch this space!

robs · Senior Member

I've ordered the part and it should be here in two weeks. It ended up costing 180GBP which makes it overly expensive for what it is in my opinion.

I have some answers to questions from earlier in this thread:

1. the tool path isn't provided to the customer and apparently it would be useless even if provided since other people wouldn't use it. Presumably due to how machines are set up in unique ways, i.e: tool slots would differ, and different holding methods for the part, etc. would make the paths fairly unique to machines set up at different companies.

2. the cost doesn't change after the first unit is made regardless of whether changes are necessary or not. The cost is for material/machine time. Programming cost isn't separate and so the price doesn't fall if there are no changes or minimal changes.

3. The cost is reduced if multiple copies are ordered at once, i.e: 2, 5, 10. I've asked for a quote out of interest to see exactly how much cheaper it is when ordering multiple units.

This has mainly been an educational process for me to learn how to get custom parts made. If I were to repeat the process I would try to refine it to reduce the cost. I believe the cost was high in this case due to a number of factors. Mainly, although I contacted 7 or 8 places in the UK that all advertised doing small-batch and single-unit runs, only two of them even replied, and one was to explain that they were over capacity and wouldn't be able to take the work on. The second company that responded were the ones who I ended up going with. Although I thought they were an engineering shop themselves, it turns out they just act as a broker to machine shops in Europe and East-Asia, so an obvious place to start would be to try and cut out the middle man and search further afield in order to get the cost down.

Another option I would consider would be buying a second hand mill and attempting to make the parts myself, although I am no machinist and I'm not sure how much success I would have. Also doing something like this manually on a 3-axis machine (even with a DRO) would probably be quite difficult.

robs · Senior Member

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For anyone that is still interested, I have just been sent these photos of the finished part, it should arrive tomorrow via UPS so that means production for a single part inc delivery was 6 days.

Cost:

1x 180 for single unit

2x 250 = 125 p/u

5x 525 = 105 p/u

10x 890 = 89 p/u

Tomorrow I'll see if the part fits and take some pics of it on the bike, with any luck.

robs · Senior Member

Part arrived as expected and amazingly, it fits!

Now to see whether the test pilot survives the testing phase...

JOHNYBOY · Super Guru

sounds expensive

robs · Senior Member

Thanks for the reply Johnyboy, I'm glad someone found this information insightful!

TTRfan · Super Guru

Following with interest Rob!

Having developed a number of products for Totally TTRs back in the day, it tended to be an iterative process and between myself and the fabricators we got it right third or fourth time.

You seem to have been a lot more successful so hats off to you!

Brian

JOHNYBOY · Super Guru

yes 101% but i think you could get it done cheaper good on you

robs · Senior Member

Hi Brian, I would be interested in hearing more about what sort of things you made, do you have any links to stuff in the shop or photos of parts you produced? Also if you have a line on a good UK machine shop, i would love a recommendation!

If I were going to produce more, I would make a couple of minor adjustments, but due to the cost and since no one else seems that interested in going down this path to convert their bikes I'm just going to shelve this project since I have accomplished my goals in learning the process and producing a part that I can use personally.

3D printing the part in plastic definitely allowed me to cut down the number of costly iterations that I think you'd usually have to go through with the machine shop since.

One of the most restrictive things that I was unaware of is the translation of CAD file to tool path is interpretive, that is to say - different machine shops will produce slightly different parts based on the same CAD file. I initially thought that if I was going to try to produce parts I would like to use a local machine shop for the iterative process and then get the part mass produced in China, but I'm not sure how well that would work. I think it would at least warrant an initial prototype from China to test the differences to between two different shops production of a part, before mass production.

One thing that I am unclear on that you may be able to shed some light on is the legalities of producing parts for motorbikes - i.e: do they need to be tested and certified? On the BSI site (www.bsigroup.com/en-GB/our-services/product-certification/industry-sector-schemes/automotive-product-certification-and-kitemark-schemes/vehicle-component-testing/) they have they offer the following:

Services Provided:

VCA approval of Exterior Lighting
VCA approval of Exterior Rear View Mirrors
VCA approval of Retroreflective Devices
VCA approval of Electrical/Electronic components for EMC Directive 95/54
VCA approval of Vehicle Glass Products
Society of Automotive Engineers and Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards approval for components for US market

..however my part doesn't seem to fall into any of these categories. Maybe I'm missing something..?

Anyway, thanks for your reply Brian!

Johnyboy, thank you for the feedback, if you have any good ideas about reducing cost that I didn't cover in earlier posts in this thread, I'd love to hear them!

TTRfan · Super Guru

Off the top of my head these are the "specials" I developed in my time as MD of Totally TTRs and not available from anyone else!

Bash plates for TTR250s and WR250Rs - aluminium
Stainless tail tidy
Lowering links for the TTR and WRR
Digital speedo sender covers - aluminium
Wheel spanners for the TTR and WRR
Speedo washers - stainless steel
Clutch holding tool
Handlebar risers/spacers
Frame guards - stainless
Long-headed seat bolts - stainless
Stainless racks and side rails
Case savers
Disc guards - aluminium
Shorty header pipes
Chain guide covers
Decompressor plugs
Exhaust trim in stainless
Motad exhausts in stainless - sadly Motad went out of business as these were superb exhausts and great value for money!
Extra long throttle and clutch cables

Steve has since added his own fabricated parts to what is an impressive list of bespoke TTR parts that didn't exist pre the Totally TTRs era smile

When I bought my first TTR, I struggled to find aftermarket parts so decided to get a few parts made starting with a bashplate. My idea was to get 4 or 5 made in the first place, keep one for myself and try and sell the other parts to help pay the development costs. You need to be confident that what you are getting made has a market, even if only limited to the first small batch.

Part of the "fun" is sorting out the type of metal to use (grade of aluminium for instance - different applications require different grades), thickness, quantity to order in each batch to allow the fabricator to get the max. out of a sheet of metal e.g. by cutting out smaller parts to use otherwise waste metal between bigger parts.

Choose a supplier that isn't too far away so that it doesn't cost a fortune to go see a prototype or pick up batches of finished parts e.g. Steve changed to another fabricator who is a lot closer to him.

I recollect that I used five different businesses each with their own particular expertise e,g. laser cutting, CNC milling, stainless welding, etc.

The most important advice I would give is to build up a good relationship with the fabricator to the extent that you sometimes suck up their mistakes!

Brian

ttr steve · Super Guru

Good advice Brian, as the supplier I found is turning out to be a pain after a change around in staff, they are asking for nearly double what they used to make the bash plates for furious furious furious

Looks like I am going to have to grovel back to your old supplier, so much for trying to keep it local to me, worth travelling if you get decent service wink

robs · Senior Member

Hey Brian,

I have your tail tidy on my TTR, and for a while had one of the motad exhausts! Great job getting such a wide variety of stuff made. Out of interest did you design these parts it in CAD? I would love to hear more about the design process you went through to make these things.

TTRfan · Super Guru

Hi Rob

No, I don't have CAD. Most parts were made from patterns I provided. Very much an iterative process!

The guy that did most of the fabrication jobs had a sideline producing after-market parts for Alfas so knew exactly what I was trying to achieve with producing a range of TTR parts and we worked very well together.

Brian