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Post Info TOPIC: Rebuilding wheels - wheel and spoke information


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Rebuilding wheels - wheel and spoke information
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I have a few spare wheels that have flat spots on the rims that won't pass our UK MOT test which allows only up to 2mm run out on aluminium rims.

I managed to get hold of some good rims so had a go at rebuilding the wheels yesterday. I managed to rebuild two rear wheels and it was time consuming but the end result was worth it. Wheels running true and looking good! I am well pleased as its the first time I have attempted this job.  biggrin

I started on a front wheel and despite the s/s spokes which don't rust, I have so far only managed to get one nipple off without damage disbelief

I have a "pencil flame" blow torch which I have used to heat the nipples up and loads of penetrating fluid but it doesn't free them off. Is there a technique that I need to know about?

The problem is that Yamaha only sell complete spoke sets so I am going to have lots of usable spokes with no nipples cry

One thing to note is that the spoke wrench that Yamaha supply in the toolkit is only good for the rear spokes - it doesn't fit the front spoke nipples. I only found this out after rounding off the first few I tried. It's a good job that I had a decent spoke wrench in my toolkit that fitted but even that's not a lot of use as the nipples are so tight.

Brian



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RE: Rebuilding wheels
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Sounds like you have tried everything possible and even sworn at it Brian. biggrin

Maybe it would be best to just buy the nipples. They should be readily available and cheap enough.  I saw a online UK site HERE.

I am not sure why the spoke nipples are not available from Yamaha UK, they appear to be still available from Yamaha AU- see HERE.

Hopefully a ''nipple guru'' will come along soon and add to this thread though. wink

Jarrah



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Brian, I've just had my Bandit MoT today and got an advisory on a "dinked" front wheel cry but I did get a full certificate from Jez. wink

I Googled the possibility of repairs to cast alloy wheels and clicked on Hagon and downloaded their *.pdf.

I was pleasantly surprised at their charges and remedies available.

Food for thought? confuse

Martyn



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East Budleigh. Devon



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I eventually got the rest of the spokes out of the front wheel but it was a struggle! I clamped the individual spokes in the vice lengthwise (not easy!) to cause least amount of damage and managed to get the seized nipples off using Vise grips. I now need 16 replacement nipples to go back on my spare front spoke set. 

I know that our local wheel building guy has got a set of TTR wheels in for rebuilding currently so will check if he can help.

The wheel balancing machine has earned its keep as I now have two good rear rims and one good front rim for future use that were previously not usable biggrinbiggrin

Brian

 

PS I watched a few You Tube videos and this was a good one:



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As there isn't another wheel/spoke thread running, it is probably worth noting here that the rear wheel spokes are in two different lengths with one side 4mm longer than the other! Hardly noticeable so just be aware.

All the front spokes are of the same length.

We stock a few news spoke sets and it is interesting to see that the spokes are packed separately to the nipples and have their own part number BUT a search of the internet and Yamaha fiche sites do not find these part numbers so you have to buy the complete set of spokes and nipples no

Brian



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I've done a few wheels (dirt bikes, bicycle and unicycle) and I invariably mangle some nipples in the process.
It is probably worse if the owner has never checked/adjusted the spokes.
I guess one possibility, after a good long soak in wd40 or something, might be to also try turning the nipples from the flat screwdriver fitting on the tube side of the rim, but that may require filing a slot in the middle of the screwdriver blade to clear the spoke ends - I haven't tried it myself, but it is a possibility if the flats on the nipple have been squashed or rounded.  But anyway with difficult nipples the spoke definitely must be held near the nipple (eg in a vice) while the nipple is turned, as otherwise the spoke shaft just twists.

regarding the re-spoking from scratch, of course you need to watch the spoke cross over pattern - best to have a reference wheel.

one other thing to watch in the truing, is that while of course you should check the lateral and radial runout, you should ALSO check the lateral offset, eg by measuring the perpendicular distance from the rim to a straight edge laid across the brake disc. (otherwise the wheel alignment may be a bit out even though the wheel is totally free from wiggles).

with enough time, truing/rebuilding can be done even without a proper stand. sometimes a marker pen can give a good indication of the extent of the rim that is offset as it wiggles when rotated. For me, what works is to think exactly what direction of force is put on a point on the rim by tightening a spoke, and make sure that you also tighten "partner" spoke(s) to balance that force - to fix a sideways movement that persists for a fair part of the rotation you have to address several spokes - tightening some spokes and loosening others, starting at the center of that "bump" and alternating sides as the more distant spokes are appropriately tightened or slightly loosened (depending on whether they end at the sprocket or disc part of the hub and which way the "bump" went) a bit less than the ones near the center of the "bump" on the rim. What I just said probably doesn't make any sense until you actually do it - but its a relaxing Zen kind of thing (if you have the time, that is). No doubt you discovered this, Brian.

spoke tightening can only go so far in correcting a problem wheel - if it has been hit hard, it has to be trued by a shop with a machine, or thrown out. I reckon you would be lucky to get anywhere by hammering etc on a dirt bike, although bicycle rims can be forced back into shape.

on the subject of rims, it never ceases to amaze me that, with dirt bikes, people will put up with major imbalances (eg from rim locks, or some tyres) without simply fixing it with a few lead weights on the rim.



-- Edited by brindabella on Tuesday 10th of June 2014 06:34:26 AM

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Spokes
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Is it possible to get pattern spoke sets for the blue tank TTR?? or do you have to get genuine? Looking at getting a rear wheel built up. Thanks.



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Super Guru

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I tried Googling and came up with 2 UK firms that can provide spokes and nipples for you:-

Alf Hagon = http://www.hagon-shocks.co.uk/common/pdf/wheels2011.pdf

Central Wheel Co = http://www.central-wheel.co.uk/spokes/spokes.html

I have not used either of them but they have both been in business for years.

Martyn



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East Budleigh. Devon



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Brian has just rebuilt some wheels - see his thread in repairs and maintenance here - im sure he can help you out as regards supply and advice wink



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I didn't think until after I had bought some genuine Yamaha spoke sets to try our local wheel builder (and TRF member) Doug Richardson in South Molton - see here

I know he is rebuilding some TTR wheels with wider rims for  Robin Webb and has some sample f&r TTR spokes that Robin sent him. He can make up any size and shape of spokes so might be worth ringing him for a price?

Brian



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All good advice Brindabella - thanks! A bit more Zen tomorrow wink

Just rebuilding another rear wheel and stripped out the spokes keeping a careful note of which side they were removed because of the two different lengths. It made the job a bit longer but may have been unnecessary.

The spokes didn't look as if they had been shifted before and my guess is they were the original set. So imagine my surprise when checking the individual spokes in my two tidy piles to find that they were a random mix  of long and short - not equal numbers which may have indicated that I had missed a "pattern" confuse

There is no reference in the manual about the different length spokes. Anyone have any ideas???

Brian



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random short/long mix seems weird. Maybe the wheel was partially rebuilt in the past?

I haven't ever taken out any spokes from a ttr250, but each side of the rear rim has 50% of the spokes entering the hub at a lower point (slightly closer to the axle) than the others - maybe they are a different length?

By the way, quite likely even the front wheel, where all spokes in the official set are the same length, actually has some differences in installed lengths (in a pattern), which would merely result in more or less thread being taken up by the nipple - the difference being too small to worry about, but possibly evident (in a new wheel) by looking at the spoke ends with tire and tube removed.

I just found a link about wheel building that I liked, and you might find to be interesting background.
troubleshooters.com/bicycles/wheelbuilding/index.htm

yeah, bicycles don't need to handle the same torque and have thinner spokes and probably don't ever use straight spokes, but the general lacing principles are the same.

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brindabella wrote:

I haven't ever taken out any spokes from a ttr250, but each side of the rear rim has 50% of the spokes entering the hub at a lower point (slightly closer to the axle) than the others - maybe they are a different length?


I think that explains it. I hadn't noticed it before. Thanks mate!

Brian



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Rebuilding wheels - wheel and spoke information
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I have just been asked for measurements by our local wheel builder and these are what I have given him.

Spoke lengths:

  • Front spokes - 240mm from under head to tip.
  • Rear spokes – long 194mm, short 190mm from under head to tip.
  • 36 spokes in each wheel

 

Spoke Nipples:

As far as I understand it the nipples on the TTR are:

8g x .275 (4.00mm x 7.00mm)

9g x .275 (3.60mm x 7.00mm)

 

 

Offsets measured from a straight edge across the disc mounting faces to edge of rim:

  • Front rim – 305mm
  • Rear rim – 333mm

 

 Rim widths:

  • Front – 615mm (J21 x 1.60 3 03 DOT)
  • Rear – 785mm (J18 x 2.15 3 99 DOT)

 

 

Has anyone else taken these measurements and can say whether mine are correct please?

Brian



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Sorry Brian, only just come across this thread.

I build wheels for our local classic motorcycle business, so I know your pain. Getting the old nipples off is a pain, and if I'm using new rim as well as spokes, I'm afraid I always resort to the bolt croppers.

Re-using spokes is something we don't do especially if they have had to be "helped" out of the old wheel. Particularly relevant if they have been heated. So although it's a bit pricey, I would recommend spending the extra for new spokes for peace of mind, bearing in mind that off road they are likely to get some hammer.

Brindabella's advice is all good, and he's also probably right about the reason for the differing spoke lengths.

He's right about using a reference wheel as well, or photos of your wheel before you started. Beware though, if it has been rebuilt before by someone other than a dealer, then they may not have used the correct cross pattern, you'd be amazed at the the things that I come across. 

I'm hoping to have my very own TTR by the weekend, so I'll be looking at the wheels straight away smile

Best of luck with the re-build



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I've just noticed this too.

I must strongly second the idea of speaking to Hagons. They are a blinding bunch and well known up here in the big city. They built a new wheel for my Cagiva after a van driver kindly knocked the bike over a drove over the wheel. They straightened the disc as well! Wasn't that bad, they said. To them, spokes were just a resource they employed but obviously they probably have fairly large buckets of many different sizes, lengths and angles. There was much sucking of teeth about my cagiva wheel saying that that rim type was no longer available and this and that, but the result was astounding. They really know their onions and the old boy that does the wheel building does all the wheel builds for the classic racers. Even the receptionist piped up once to correct the tech I was speaking to about spring rates to remind him that the price he'd given would only apply if the damping remained in range.

Another thing to remember if people are going to come back to this thread is the head angle at the hub end. Friend needed to replace a couple of spokes on an old XT's rear wheel. Breaker helpfully sent him four different types that only someone looking for it would have noticed any difference between. Having said that I'm not near the bike right now and I'm guessing they are all the same on the TTR???

Good luck.


Andy

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RE: Rebuilding wheels - wheel and spoke information
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Anyone know what the DOT numbers refer to on the rims please?

  • Front is J21 x 1.60 3 03 DOT
  • Rear is J18 x 2.15 3 99 DOT

Ta

Brian



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J denotes the rim style i.e the configuration of the bead lip etc, then its the size, then its the month and year of manufacture I.e march of 1999 and 2003, DOT stands for department of transportation.

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Thanks for the info Pete!

I have got my hands on a Talon Yamaha wheel - 36 spoke - J18 x 2.15 which fits a YZ125, YZ250, YZF250, YZF450 years 1999 to 2012.

Fingers crossed I can use the rim with a TTR hub and spokes.

Shame it's gold not silver cry

Brian



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I'm sure the spokes will slot their way in. You will just have to gold both the wheels right up now!..

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